Well said, Big Daddy!

Big Daddy,
The two of us have a strange combination of overlapping and distinctly opposed values but there is one thing I agree with here for sure: that a little bit of self sufficiency training is really important. It can really help a person (I think of both genders) build the identity of a survivor without having to go through a terrible experience to get there. In some ways, girls get more self sufficiency training in their traditional gender roles. They learn things like cooking etc. Boys on a traditional career building path get highly specialized and often lose some of the opportunities. I personally missed out on, say, doing a lot of camping and hunting to do things that looked good on my college apps. What a shame, it probably made no difference and I rediscovered those activities as an adult and felt some real grief about missing them when I was younger. When I was young, those were the teachable moments.

I also agree that being a good man takes a lot more than the equipment and appreciate the way you write about your dedication to your family. I would add elements to my description of a good man such as compassion and I don’t see anything wrong with sensitivity as a basic part of the human (male too) make up. It becomes a problem when it is allowed to be an excuse for not fulfilling other duties of manhood.

Man, would I like to drive a truck. But, not doing so is part of my sacrifice for my family. We simply can’t afford the extra gas (especially at 6 bucks a gallon here in Europe). I would also prefer to buy American when I am living in the states, but their product (not the trucks, the cars) was inferior for a long time and I feel that the American auto industry was greedy and failed to innovate. Now their insolence is being rewarded. I need that good mileage and reliability.

Big Daddy,

Great post and you bring up many good points.  I’m sure that there will be some debate on this issue.  There’s only one thing that I disagree with in your post: I think a real man can drink Starbucks, but then again, I drink a Venti bold with room for cream and sugar.  Is that cheating?

I like your post, it got me thinking...but I certainly don’t see eye to eye on all of your points.  Responsibility, self-reliance, and strength are all great qualities.  I agree that they SEEM to be lacking in a great deal of the men I encounter, but appearances can be decieving.  It is possible to embrace a bit of both sides of the coin.  For example:

I hate guns...but am competent with both pistols and rifles.

I pay others to change my oil...but spent 15 years doing it myself.

I don’t like to kill game...but have killed and dressed deer, rabbit and fowl.

I like to stay in comfortable hotels...but have spent a few nights in the High Sierras with nothing but the clothes I’m wearing and a Buck Knife...and enjoyed it.

I like expensive espresso drinks...but a plain cup of joe gets the job done.

I carry a cell phone, a laptop, use a desktop...but find a book and newspaper to be the best ways to stay informed.

There are MANY ways to live in this world...some of us are fortunate to be able to choose how to live...but are able to live with less should the need arise.

Finally, on a different note, how about we teach are daughters to be strong WOMEN, rather than princessess...wouldn’t that make the world a nicer place to be a man in?

If I can pay someone to change my oil, and have 30 minutes of extra time to spend with my family, then so be it, but I could also do those things with my son and daughters and teach them how to as well all while spending time with them.

There are MANY ways to live in this world...some of us are fortunate to be able to choose how to live...but are able to live with less should the need arise.

Well said, But I wasn’t talking about those people, I’m talking about the ones who can’t.

Finally, on a different note, how about we teach are daughters to be strong WOMEN, rather than princesses...wouldn’t that make the world a nicer place to be a man in?

No, the world has become a much harder place to be a man in, and at the same time, women are being taught to be “strong, and independent”. Women are to be cherished, not put in competition with. A woman who is held as high as royalty, and coddled and protected and yes cherished, will be a much happier woman, I will say that a woman who disagrees with that has never been cherished.

Bigg Daddy, I have a large issue with the reply on the princess comment. 

I am raising my daughter to be independent and strong. 

I have no issue to see Women in Leadership roles as Presidents or Head of church or the President of the United States.

The definition of oneself will determine who and what they are, not gender.  My spouse is strong and independant in some areas of life and is feble and scared in other areas of life… So am I.

I see and talk to couples where the female is the exectuive and the father is the high school teacher.  I think this is great as glass ceilings are removed from many spheres of society, the leadership in all forms will be more balanced in it’s views and values and we will all benefit from the diversity of views.

I can’t say we, as males leaders have done really well in the last 4,000 years.  We have to look beyond flexing muscles to make this world a better place and as male leaders we haven’t.

I do admire your strong convictions and values but have issues with some of them.

I agree that we there is a bluriness to the roles of men and women today and men do need to be strong and much of what you say resonates with me.  But I would caution you to not to penalize (maybe “castrate” is a better word to use) a man because his skill set may be different than what is traditional, especially if his father wasn’t around to teach him how to change oil and do other things like that.  I don’t think he would be any less of a man because of that.  The main and plain things are what matter most. 

I wonder how industrialization and the evolution of suburbia has affected masculinity.  I mean, for instance, where where I live in CA, I couldn’t walk in my backyard and kill and eat (well, it would be nice to be rid of n-hood cats sometimes though) and that sort of thing.

Being a man isn’t about skills, it’s about character. It’s about having patience and wisdom, courage and compassion, respect and honor. It’s making decisions and doing what needs to be done, and it’s being reliable and steadfast. It is serving, and leading.

I pay someone to change my oil and rotate my tires. But I also build web sites and repair computers. I change our air filter, but if our air conditioning breaks I hire someone to fix it. Someone else knows how, and makes their living doing so. Which is more important: me trying to fix the air conditioner, or having air conditioning in the middle of a St. Louis heat wave?

I know what a man’s priorities are.

When Elijah abandoned Ahab, God sent ravens to feed his prophet. It was neither Elijah’s wit nor his gun that allowed him to survive, but God’s grace. And a true man knows this, too.

I’m being harsh, but I spent twenty-five years being made to feel inferior because I wasn’t a ‘man’s man’. I know who I am now, and my masculinity isn’t determined by Field & Stream.

I never learned any of those manly things when I was a kid.  Heck, even if my dad had been around he wouldn’t have taught me those things.  His idea of being manly is sipping wine while listening to jazz.  Ugh.

It wasn’t until I was almost 30 that I started learning and enjoying the simple pleasures of things like:

Building things out of wood (like our deck and the kids’ swingset)
Swimming in a lake (as opposed to sitting in a hot tub)
Cutting my own hair (because a free bad haircut is better than a $12 bad haircut)
Walking in nature (I still can’t name the trees and animals to my kids, so I make stuff up)
Monster Truck Rallies (I can’t believe I used to make fun of these things, they’re fantastic)

My point is that I have a long way to go because of the handicap of having an absent father.  There are many MANY things that I will never learn to do, or even like to learn to do, and that’s okay.  Life’s too short to rush through everything just to check it off your list.

Mostly I just want to teach both my son and daughter that life is packed with possibilities and try not to let to much of it slip by.

A man does not have to call the A/C man to change the air filter in his house.

I never did that, but I did have our furnace tuned-up after six years and the technician asked me “When was the last time you changed your filter?” and I replied, “Ummm, what do you mean by ‘change the filter’?”

But I did do it all by myself!  Change the 6-year-old filter, I mean.

What a load of #########, plain and simple!

Once again, you show that the only “life” that is right for you comes out of a 1950’s New Yorker Magazine.

Fix your car?  What do you do besides change the oil and maybe rotate the tires. Those Latte-Sipping pansies with their computer knowledge can now do more for your car these days than you can.

When I was a teen, I took apart the carburator in my car, cleaned it, and put it back (sucessfully).  So what?  What did that do except fuel my ego that I could?

You want to hunt and fish for your food?  Hey, go for it.  I do not fault you for it. But let us be honest here for a moment, shall we?  Where does a majority of your food come from?  The Supermarket.  Take pride as you dine on that fish you caught at the lake.  But be honest.  The vegetables, and everything else used to prepare that dinner was bought.  We are not hunters and gatherers any more.

As for the time for “training” your children, I pay somebody $20 for two purposes.  One is that it provides me more time that I do not need to waste being “manly” under my car. Second, I ensure that oil is recycled properly without needing to waste additional time going driving to and from a recycle center.  (You are “man” enough to give a #### about the planet that you will leave to your children right?).

You end this with proof of your insecurities.  A “Man” doesn’t fear being overrun by “feminism”, “sensitivity” or “Starbucks.” The first two are just part of evolution past the insecure neanderthal thinking you express.  The last is of course, just an indulgence that is far better than the burnt crud you drink over an open fire while hunting to prove your manliness.

Well “Latte man”, you’re not even worth responding to but one thing I will say is this: What we do works. It may seem prehistoric and/or old-fashioned, but it works.

I started contributing to this site to share my experiences as a father. Also as a way to share with my son the things I write. He has read most all of my posts and quite a few follow-up comments and until now it has been safe. That is obviously not the case anymore.

So Doug, your editing techniques need some work. I appreciate the opportunity, but I will no longer be a part of Dadbloggers.

P.S. One of the things that I like about having a debate with men is that they don’t get overly emotional about things. I guess I was wrong.

It’s been fun.

Hey all and Big Daddy,

Before we all get to carried away, I want to remind you of a few things.

1. Latte Man is not among those of us who are regular contributors.
2. This forum can be read by the entire internet and therefore there will be some who disagree, some strongly.
3. As far as I know, Doug doesn’t edit comments before they go up. Ronnie may have seen this before Doug had a chance.
4. This is a forum for fathers, not necessarily our kids, as there are aspects of fatherhood that we should be able to discuss that are not appropriate for kids.
5. I am sure that Big Daddy knew he was posting opinions that were controversial. 

So, I propose that no one let one post or one comment mean so much that they leave this community. Doug is doing a hell of a job, in my opinion.

And, Doug, I hope this comment doesn’t step on your toes as our leader here. The decisions about editing are obviously yours to make with as much input from us as you see fit. I just would hate to see this valuable site become too homogenous in its opinions and lose its diversity because of folks getting offended and leaving.

Henry

I just got confirmed as a contributor 2 days ago.  Before applying, I looked at all the profiles. The diversity is why I choose to read and post here. 

- I certainly can agree to disagree. Don’t give me politically correct. I am sick of politically correct.
- I understood this is for fathers also. I would not be interested in this blog if we have to bring it to a PG13 rating.

Ronnie -

C’mon, this is the most activity we’ve had in a while! This is why blogs exist. Henry said it best. Don’t let our insecurities drive you off.

Like many other folks who grew up in a big city I was never taught much of what Big Daddy refers to so I can’t comment fully but I feel no less a man.  I will say that while Big Daddy may be able to hunt in the forest, I was taught to recognize human reaction in the jungle of the subway so I have skills that serve me every day in dealing with people.

My only issue was in regards to how we raise our daughters.  I believe Big Daddy’s reference/statement was how to “treat” our daughters.  I don’t believe he said anything like “raise our daughters as princesses”.  All our children and spouses should be raised with respect for themselves and that they in turn respect each other and their parents.  I think some of us jumped a bit fast on this one.

All kids should be raised in my mind that they feel themselves equal to anyone else regardless of gender and feel empowered to state their thoughts.  If I didn’t feel this way I would be terrified that my daughter when on some date down the road would not be able to stand up for herself and tell the schmuck trying to take advantage of her that “No means no”.  If anything I would train the girls more in martial arts than the boys to kick butt when they need to.

So treating a daughter like a princess is fine for her daddy as long as the daddy empowers the daughter to believe she is more than just a girly girl.  Like I said, some of us may have jumped on Big Daddy a bit fast on this point.

Well said Doug. Thanks again for the time and effort you put in everyday.

Doug, you rock. Keep it up… And geez, BigDaddy… what are you running from?

I wrote about manhood in one of my first posts…

I have wrestled long and hard with what it means to be a man, and I am grateful that it doesn’t come down to hunting deer and changing oil. God has shown me that it comes down to this: He made me a man, and that’s a good, good thing. I’m learning to be comfortable in my skin, by the grace of God. Now that’s a legacy I want to pass on to my boys.

I’m a woman and I have something to say to all you men.  There’s nothing wrong with a woman being a girly girl, but she had better know how to stand on her feet in the process. Meaning she needs to be taught that the whole world won’t look at her as that.  The world is big bad and cruel and don’t or won’t give a hoot about her girly girlness.  I’m a woman who looks okay, very strong willed and mind.  I don’t put myself out there as nothing but a woman.  I cook, clean, raised two kids, very educated, play basketball, looks completely like a woman, paint, do yard work, draw, sing, I can go on and on.  However, I am looked as being Ms. Snooty to some and hard by others.  I don’t need a man to validate me.  I love me enough to make sure all is well.  If I can’t fix it, I hire someone better qualified.  I look at a man as a man, when he works, respects woman, take care of his woman, protect his woman, teach his children well and in the process do right in there presence, believe in God and be honest about what he feels, a man is a man when he works and he is never satisfied with what is, meaning he tries to progress. Not keep up with the Jones’s, that’s a total different thing.  A man who woos his woman and gives her what she needs. A man is one who takes care at home at all cost.  A man is one who isn’t intimidated by a strong woman and still holds it down when with a strong woman.  Being a man has nothing to do with being able to catch your food, raise your food, or fight.  I can do all of that yet I am woman and look absolutely nothing like a man.  A man walks and talks the part. He doesn’t mistreat or disrespect his woman or anybody elses’s but he don’t have a problem with putting one in her place if she disrespects him.  A man doesn’t have a problem with showing his emotions even if that means crying.  I could go on and on.  So you guys stop the bickering and understand that being a man has nothing to do with the size of your balls. If that was the case the world would be in a sad shape, because there are plenty of us females with huge ones (metaphoric view).  Get right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless to you all.  Oh, the biggest is, if you don’t know, being a man means you have no problem in wanting to learn.  If you wasn’t loved as a child, do you go around destroying others or do you learn what love is?  If you were beat as a child, do you go around beating women and your children or do you seek help to understand why you act the way you do. Figure it out!!!!!!!!!!